Christ himself is "the MOST" faithful and discreet slave. Those who act most like him, that is who are truly Christian, might be reasoned as a broader faithful, discreet slave but Christ himself is the MOST faithful discreet slave. So, is protecting child molestors following that slave? Is secretly affiliating with the U.N. while denouncing it hypocritical or in line with THAT slave?
nancee park
JoinedPosts by nancee park
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48
DISPROVE THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE
by minimus inone of the most ingrained things for long time witnesses to change their viewpoint on is the fds.
i believe that due to the constant information at the meetings, conventions, publications and elder's talks, the doctrine of the faithful slave is pounded into everyone's heads.once a person sees the misunderstanding of this teaching, it's easier to critically see the wrongness of the watchtower.
can you suggest easier, less complicated rebuttals to this doctrine?
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48
DISPROVE THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE
by minimus inone of the most ingrained things for long time witnesses to change their viewpoint on is the fds.
i believe that due to the constant information at the meetings, conventions, publications and elder's talks, the doctrine of the faithful slave is pounded into everyone's heads.once a person sees the misunderstanding of this teaching, it's easier to critically see the wrongness of the watchtower.
can you suggest easier, less complicated rebuttals to this doctrine?
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nancee park
Just ask this about these two verses:
Matthew 23:10 says "Neither be called 'leaders,' for Your Leader is one, the Christ." so how many overall spiritual Leaders are to head up Jehovah's Witnesses? About 12, 144000, or 1?
1 Timothy 2:5 says "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus" so which is true:
A) we must look to a body of men between us?
B) we must look only to God's son Jesus Christ?
If they are honest these two verses show that the "Governing Body" men of the Watchtower Society and even any 144,000 "annointed" do not get between us and God but only Christ.
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IT WAS NEVER ENOUGH!!!
by Deli King inhaving served as an elder before resigning i can understand why 'christendom's' ministers are full time.
you have to find the balance between, family, work, preparing for meetings (including non public meetings), rest, self study, field service, and i'm sure i left some items out.
this is extremely difficult if you truly want to do a good job.
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nancee park
Actually, all who serve are servants; elders are just older servants. All should be encouraged to serve and hence all should become servants, although in the best sense of the word.
The words or terms "servant" or "elder" are properly speaking descriptions of what you do already and in the case of "elder" a noting of age, not some special position or title granted by a human organization.
Christ did not call for a special group of clergy. Paul said in Christ all are equal.
Where a group of two or more have the need to do so, as with weddings, they can certify someone at least for the occasion as a performing servant.
Just be the best friend you can be and that's being a great servant.
There's also no need for filling out forms, keeping secret or open records on members, formally judging people's degree of sinning and the like.
James pointed out that the only judging would be if some needed to have someone serve to judge some relatively trivial matter such as over a business disagreement so as to keep the peace.
Formal judging is against the Bible.
The Watchtower Society's groping for power or a high degree of control over member's personal business and lives is what is burning out many good persons.
They, the WTS, is an apostate body, destroying the lives of I truly believe virtually the entire membership.
Most servants/elders in the earliest days of Christianity lived an average live span of about 35 years total. If a man produced children at age 16 and raised them to age 16 then he was truly an elder at latest around age 32 and in such cases recognized as such about 3 years before dying, although hopefully a "servant" even from childhood, and some might even have called him an elder earlier on, depending on their respect for him.
Today, by contrast, the WTS gives elders a judging-and-lording-it-over-of-others period of potentially decades, say 30-50 years. Too much power, too many years, too much abuse.
Edited by - nancee park on 22 August 2002 23:43:23
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What do you suggest?
by Ardilla inthere's almost one year that i left the org, but i didn't know why i still have thouse guilty feelings.
i'm not doing nothing what in the bible is forbidden and i read the crisis book form r. franz.
when i read it, i felt that it wasn't bad that i had doubts of the org, because the goverment had it too!
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nancee park
Este informacion ensena lo que es falso sobre muchas cosas incluyendo por ejemplo lo que dice la Sociedad Atalaya de los cumpleanos, la Navidad etcetera. Aun en cosas "sencillas" no han ensenado la verdad completa. Es un sumario muy util. Puede traducirlo en todo u parte entonces compartirlo con la otra persona si ella sabe mejor espnaol.
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS GOVERNING BODY APOSTATE FOR SECRET U.N. LIASON, PEDOPHILE COVERUPS ETC: There are many nice Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) but the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society (WTS) over them, and most local WTS elders cover up child molestation and let JW pedophiles go door-to-door as proved at http://www.silentlambs.org or phone toll-free 1 877-WT-ABUSE. And this shows a UK elder handcuffed for prison because a pedophile:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_2123000/2123546.stm
WTS leaks state that over 23,000 JW pedophiles are on file at WTS Bethel headquarters in Brooklyn, New York (USA), most unrevealed to police despite Romans 13:1. That at least one pedophile was on the Governing Body of the WTS in the 1980s if not now also is documented: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=5466&site=3 Convicted Ministerial Servant/Elder pedophiles include Gregory Blackstone at Hollis, New Hampshire; Larry Baker at Augusta, Maine; Tim Gardner at Richmond, Missouri; Manual Beliz at Othello, WA; others in the UK, France, Norway, Australia etc
WTS Awake and Watchtower magazines and elders say God opposes the UN but, until exposed, in 1991-2001 the WTS was secretly a formal U.N. associate not just to use the U.N.'s library as proved if you read the Nov 22, 1998 Awake magazine and use Search at the top at jehovahs-witness.org with "UN" or "U.N." Besides, the U.N. does not even require a group to become an official associate group in order to get a card to use its library! After this was publicized on the internet the official U.N. ties were cut but not all unofficial ties: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=34436&site=3
Christ said families would be split by those doing right and those doing wrong but WTS has formal Judicial Committees destroying families via numerous formal renderings of disfellowshipment (severe shunning). 1 Cor 6:1 only says judge "trivial" things as in business, James 2:4-13 calls judging harmful, and Paul says the "majority" (2 Cor 2:6) followed his advice to shun a wrongdoer, meaning a Minority chose not to and yet he nowhere condemns them.
Acts 15:20 says abstain from blood but 1 Sam 14:32-5 says Saul's army ate unBLED meat to not starve and no verses show God not forgiving them. Christ says God also forgave David's eating temple holy bread and that God wants Mercy Not Sacrifice. (Mt 12) The May 22, 1994 Awake tells of 26 JW kids who died without transfusions, and by common sense in massive bleeding as in car wrecks blood expanders won't save lives http://www.ajwrb.org . About 3 JWs die daily earthwide from the unscriptural policy! (Blood On The Altar by David Reed) Yet most normal identical twins transfuse whole blood to each other through a shared placenta and childrens' whole blood is sometimes found in mothers years after birth.
WTS says Christ was likely born about Oct 2, so why ignore counting back 9 months for normal conception or genetic-level birth means he was born in late December? Why insist Christmas is from the pagan Saturnalia when John 10:22-3 says Christ also celebrated the Festival of Dedication or Lights, i.e. Hannukah, which first began Dec 25 but has varied since because lunar-based? Job 1:3, 3:1-3 show Job's kids celebrated birthdays if you read all 3 verses to see day of birth is meant. At Luke 2 angels themselves celebrated Christ's birth. Santa is from Saint Nicholas, an actual red-robed Christian gift-giving elder of the Middle Ages, not a wizard or pagan god. The word Easter may as easily be from the Anglo-Saxon word eastern (Christianity came from East of England) as from the goddess Eastre, the eggs as likely from the Jewish passover egg as from paganry, common sense saying early Christians more likely using eggs and rabbits to symbolize the hope for new life by resurrection than as vesiges of pagan fertility or sex rites!
Halloween came from All Hallows (Holy Ones/Saints) Evening when parents had children dress as saints to encourage them to be good, the normally harmless pranks coming from Ireland where maybe or maybe not taken from pagans even as wedding rings, names of days, months, some Christian names in the Bible like Apollos and Jason also came from pagans. Why does the WTS call compromises holidays that attacked and replaced paganisms especially since Colossians 2:16 says let none judge you about a holiday or Sabbaths? WTS calls a cross a repugnant murder weapon but Paul said boast in it as a symbol of resurrection over death. (Ga 6:14, 1Cor 1:17-18) They say it was a stake but human remains and inscriptions show archaeologists the stauros was a cross not stake, Dr F Zugibe's research shows suffocation would be in minutes if on a stake but in hours if on outstretched cross per Lu 23:44 and Mat 27:45-6, and the word stauros can mean not just stake but cross.
Although almost only the United Pentecostals teach that Jesus is God Almighty (Jehovah) Himself, WTS says the Trinity is believing Father, Son, Spirit are one "identical" person and falsely say most all Protestant and Catholic churches teach that, even though the fact is that most all other Protestant and Catholic groups accept the trinity idea as being three totally different entities or persons forming one "Godship" (Ro 1:20), Son and Spirit sharing inherited age, power, knowledge from God just as an acorn may be only one day old but also have its genes inheriting its ancestral oak tree's age, capacity amd information!
Members are told report on each other although the Bible condemns busy-bodying. Nor are regular JWs allowed to read Judicial Committee "sin files" on themselves, many not knowing they exist often with misinformation and kept at Brooklyn's Bethel headquarters even if destroyed locally after seven years. Page 232 in the Insight book shows a picture of the Pay Attention To Yourselves And All The Flock book that elders have but do not allow non-elders to read. Page 302 in the Daniel book and pages 88 and 651 in the Proclaimers book show photos of the Knights Templar swords and the cross-with-crown-and-wreath used by Masons who sometimes use "Theocratic Warfare" tactics to change members' personalities on early WTS literature. Not surprisingly with the pedophile and other scandals, many good JWs have also complained of visual and electronic spying and harassment, including physically! Some old WT books also have the winged sun god Ra on front covers - never a Christian symbol.
Many Jehovah's Witnesses staying JWs are cutting time and money given the WTS which is declared "apostate" by silentlambs.org for endangering children, the secret U.N. liason etc. Many exJWs meet for fun ( http://exjw.meetup.com/) , get a newsletter from a fellowship united by love which is greater than forced same beliefs (Col 3:14, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jahchristian/) , join a church etc. This was written out of love for our JW families and friends as well as the public's - yours too! Please help out silentlambs.org (1 877-WT-ABUSE) in fighting for the children by making and distributing more copies today!
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Dr. Bergman
by Jerry Bergman ini have now read the section that deals with me.
all i can say is i am amazed!!!
don't my critics have any concern about the facts???
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nancee park
His information is a recital of other authorities who are all reputable. Yes, he could add in year 2002 studies if such are available and put them on the internet, say, on freeminds.org which would create an even bigger, better impact.
Jerry, I know you wrote at least a foreward to the German book "Theocratic Warfare." I recall it had statistics on how many percentage-wise of the Circuit and District Overseers over Jehovah's Witnesses use theocratic warfare which is Watchtower-condoned lying for the benefit of the organization used by elders although most rank-and-file are not informed of its usage and they themselves are often victimized by it.
Why not get that information up on Randy Watter's freeminds.org website which is frequented by so many people? Also, as said, any more recent studies having a bearing on incidence of mental disorders among the JW community, much of which I believe is in fact caused by Watcthower mind-and-word gamery including TW.
I believe if you speak with him that Simon, the moderator of this board, would also be happy to work with you. Although WTS apologists have slipped in falsities against you on this discussion board, it can also be used positively to educate all about such misdoings and related matters.
I also greatly appreciated your book which compiled Bible Student and JW materials into a bibiliography which included descriptions of contents. Extremely thorough and scholarly.
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Secret Letters and files
by simplesally init still bothers me very much that they are allowed to keep files on us and that we have no right to see the contents.
they can choose to look at them or destroy them, whatever they wish, but our wishes about a file with our name on it, about our lives is not unavailable.
when you change halls a letter is written about you to the next group of men in black.
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nancee park
Judicial Committee files are kept even after your death at Bethel but local elders are supposed to destroy their local copies after seven years, which some do and others do not. The letters of recommendation that get passed to the next kingdom hall's elders often contain many cruel falsifications, but citizens of the United States are not usually allowed to see either the Judicial Committees file records or the letters-of-recommendation about themselves with this based on the separation of church-and-state.
Those in the European Union it would appear are allowed by EU law to see the documents and I think this may hold true also for Canadian Jehovah's Witnesses. However the Watchtower Society has its "creative" ways of getting around such laws. For example they can advise elders to read a letter or file then destroy it locally although a copy is kept in the U.S. at the Bethel headquarters and the elders in your new kingdom hall simply keep in their minds or "private" notes whatever was said in the orginal documents.
Another clever way to backstab members is for them to say nothing specific about you but to say something like "this brother would greatly benefit from the disciplining applied to Job" or even less specifically "Proverbs ## : ## comes to mind when thinking of this sister." Also they can "confidentially" telephone what they think of you to the next kingdom hall etc.
If you find yourself on the "outs" with the elders in one kingdom hall what may happen is this. They can act so-so to lukewarm nice to you while you are at their kingdom hall, then send a letter recommending you be put under severe discipline at the next hall which gets carried out there for no reason that you can figure out. That next hall's elders may observe or spy on you about six months then start working to "refine" you.
They may not even know whatever it is that the previous elders disliked about you but feel "honor-bound" to act in line with the recommmendations. You will be expected to take the "tough love" treatment the whole time until you move to still another kingdom hall. There, if you do not talk "disloyally" about how the previous hall's elders "mistreated" you or other people but you do pioneer constantly and attend all the meetings, then they might just start giving you a few priveleges.
I cannot say this is done at everyone of the 90,000 or so congregations earthwide, but I can and do say it is done at those that I know of in the United States. It may not hold true for all U.S. congregations but believe me it holds true for all too many. There are good elders but there are also snakes who act nice to your face and gleefully stab you in the back just as Mother Bethel pleases and allows.
Maybe five years ago at a Ministerial Training School in the U.S. elders were told to start administering their own discipline at their own kingdom halls while a person attended there instead of passing along the recommendation that they undergo fire from the next body of elders. This is what was taught "officially" but "unofficially" the word was "you can ignore what was taught because it was just one of those things that was taught for appearances to protect the Governing Body and its staff up in Bethel in Brooklyn."
Yes, there's too much of this that goes on. Hope this helps.
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Dr. Bergman
by Jerry Bergman ini have now read the section that deals with me.
all i can say is i am amazed!!!
don't my critics have any concern about the facts???
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nancee park
I am happy you are here to defend yourself now. Some of us have posted your material and then these other people immediately started saying you are not reputable, which I know for a fact from reading some of your other works and credentials was false, propaganda put out by the Watchower Society. You need to telephone Randy Watters who has freeminds.org and see if he will put some of your other stuff up on his website.
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nancee park
Send a copy to Bill Bowen, Simon.
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LONDON WATCHTOWER RAIDED !!
by orangefatcat inlast night our dear friend mouthy sent me an e-mail saying she recieved and e-mail from paul that the "watchtower was raided in london" please check out this url.
http://www.welcome.to/witnesscd
i hope more information becomes available soon.
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nancee park
Why? Possibly they are nuts, stupid or work for the Watchtower. It would be a good idea though to actually point out to UK police that if they were to seek out documents on pedophilia coverups including among Watchtowerites, it could help them crack the case they are now involved with and or possibly others.
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LONDON WATCHTOWER RAIDED !!
by orangefatcat inlast night our dear friend mouthy sent me an e-mail saying she recieved and e-mail from paul that the "watchtower was raided in london" please check out this url.
http://www.welcome.to/witnesscd
i hope more information becomes available soon.
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nancee park
I will suggest here as then that the thread be deleted, especially now that Hawkaw knows it is bogus.